Sandra Poncet，巴黎一大经济学教授，国际经济与发展研究中心带头人。她是巴黎新葡萄8883官网amg和法国主要智库CEPII科学顾问成员之一，研究关注全球化的背景下经济发展的过程，主要用实证分析方法分析中国经济。研究成果发表在《发展经济学杂志》,《经济和统计学评论》,《世界发展》,《世界银行经济评论》等学术期刊。
近日，新葡萄8883官网amg海外优秀学者授课项目邀请到巴黎一大Sandra Ponce教授做了题为：Trade and Development in China的讲座。讲座结束之后，Sandra Poncet教授接受了新葡萄8883官网amg新闻信息中心的专访。
提问1：您是从何时起对中国经济和发展问题感兴趣的？
Q1:When did you become interested in Chinese economy and development?
A1: I did my master in the University of Auvergne in the center of France which has a long established experience on the African economy but started to develop expertise on China. I jumped on the first PhD fellowship focused on China while most of the students there were solely interested in Africa. I started my PhD in 1999.
我是在奥弗涅大学完成了我的硕士学位。奥弗涅位于法国的中心，而奥弗涅大学长期致力于研究非洲经济，而近年开始研究中国问题。我是从1999年开始念博士的，在得到我的第一个博士奖学金后开始专注于中国领域，但其实大部分学生当时只对非洲研究感兴趣。
提问2：您第一次来中国的时候，您觉得和自己之前对中国的想象有没有区别？
Q2:When you came to China for the first time, is there any difference with your imagination about China before?
A2: I think my first trip was in 1998. I didn‘t know much about China. At the time, I was doing an internship at the French embassy in Beijing. Every week end I was traveling for tourism purpose.
I think I was not so surprised by the cities. But what really stroked me and the thing I am stillstrickenby is the difference between the cosmo area and the inland.
The massive income gap, culture gap between eastern and western cities. I was impressed to see connectivity and connection between cities and coast which are very similar to western countries. But the rest of China, the inland was so different. That was real very surprised me.
我第一次来中国是在1998年，但当时我并不了解中国。我那时在北京的法国驻中国大使馆实习，每个周末我都会出去旅游。
我想我对中国的城市并不感到十分新奇。真正让我惊讶而且直到今天都让我困惑的是沿海大城市和内陆的差异，尤其体现在东西部城市间巨大的收入差距和文化差异。沿海城市和西方国家非常相似，这点虽令我印象深刻，但真正让我大吃一惊的是中国内陆地区是如此不同。
提问3：您去过中国的哪些地方，有什么印象深刻的见闻吗？
Q3:Have you traveled around China? Which city impressed you most?
A2:The place where I would love to live will definitely be Shanghai. But the place where I would love to spend time and travel would definitely be Sichuan Province. It is very far away when you have somehow Tibetan minorities. It is so peaceful. The sky is blue. Feel theatmosphere. It is great.
我很乐意在上海生活，但要选一个地方去旅行的话毋庸置疑是四川省。这里远离人烟，可以见到少数民族。非常宁静，天也很蓝，甚至感觉天空触手可及，这种感觉很棒。
提问4：在您看来，复旦新葡萄8883官网amg的学生和您所执教的巴黎大学的学生有不同吗？您对复旦的教学体制和培养理念有怎样的评价？
Q4:In your opinion, what is the difference between the students from the school of economics in Fudan and Université de Paris 1? What's your comments on the education system?
A4:The funny thing is that in the course I am teaching, there are two French exchange students. So that is not so different. What is nice is that there is somehow expectation, because I'm foreigner and I'm teaching a class on Chinese economy. So I think the students are keener to challenge me and try to see what I really know and know what I am speaking about. But in France, you have status. French students they believe in their professor and believe in what I am talking about. But here I think there is a sense that when I speaking about the reforms in detail, they are truly surprised somehow that I knows more details. They are listening much more because I am speaking about their country. I think they are much more concentrated.
有趣的是，我上课的班上正好有两个法国交换生，感觉并没有很大不同。学生们在课堂上会有一些期待，因为我是一个外国人，但我教的是中国经济。我觉得中国的学生更热衷于挑战我，想知道我的真才实学。但是在法国，老师有自己的地位，法国学生相信他们的教授，并且相信教授所说的。当我在讲述一些改革的细节时，我感觉中国学生很惊讶于我对细节的了如指掌。因为我在讲他们的国家，所以他们听课会更加专注。
提问5：您对如何更好地建设新葡萄8883官网amg，培养更多的优秀人才有何建议？
Q5:As far as you know the education in Fudan, do you have any further suggestions to cultivate more talents in this area?
A5：I think most of the exchange programs work very well but more could be done to build our mutual knowledge.
For example, I am having a master program in France which is joint with Fudan. The students they come in France a year,and then they return to Shanghai. But there is no feedback. Sothey concentrated on the teachingthat they receiving in France to succeed in France. And they go to Fudan, they concentrated on the teaching they have in Shanghai. But there is less work on making feedback. It is too bad that we don’t work in the connections between those two years. I hope they would be more interested in what happens in Europe to make them real internationalized.
我认为现在学院大多数的交流项目很不错，但还可以做得更好，以建立我们复合的知识体系。
例如，我在法国有一个硕士课程是和新葡萄8883官网amg合办的。学生每年都在法国一年，然后他们回到上海。但是这当中没有收到他们关于项目的反馈。在法国时，他们会关注于在法国所接受的教学，凭此去获得学业上的成功。他们到复旦以后，又专注于在上海所学上。但关于他们学习成果的反馈却很少。这两年之间的衔接不是很好。我希望这些中国的学生对欧洲发生的事能更感兴趣，从而真正国际化。
提问6：最近30年中国经济发展很迅速，您认为这其中最重要的因素是什么？
Q6:As we all know, China raised rapidly during the last 30 years. What is most important force for Chinese development from the past experience?
A6：What I think is very impressive is the capacity of the government to be very clever and pragmatic to move forward. My work is on the economy.I try to evaluate the repercussions of the various policies, such as the opening up, the privatization etc.
Those were engaged by the government. It did not happen freely. But the wise part of the government is to open out pockets for market forces. But as we see, the incremental way is very interesting to study. What I am very impressed with the capacity of the government to learn from mistakes which was not the talent of French authorities. French are very dogmatic and it is very difficult to move backward. In China, you manage to move forward or back forward depending on rational.
我认为令人印象深刻的是中国政府的能力，非常聪明又务实推进。我的工作是在经济领域。我试图评估各种政策的影响，如改革开放，私有化等。
这些政策都是政府主导的，它很难自发形成。但是政府聪明的一点是借用了市场的力量。正如我们看到的，这种渐进的方式是非常有趣的研究对象。我对于中国政府从错误中汲取教训的学习能力也印象深刻，这一点似乎不是法国政府的天赋。法国政府很教条以至于很难向后看。而在中国，你可以理性地向前看或者向后看。
提问7：我们正处于全球化时代，您认为什么影响了中国经济及其全球化？
Q7:Right now we are during an age of globalization, so which factor have mostly effectedon China’ economy and globalization, for example TPP, TPIP.
A7：My impression is that Chinese development will rely less and less on that outward dimension. So exporting and importing hopefully will be less important. China is losing its cost comparative advantage. Labor cost is increasing. There is no way out but it is something very positive. It means people are getting richer and this is what you should care about. So as China grows richer, it has less and less capacity to export cheap goods.
The point is that the future of China’s development will become much more normal, more balanced with more domestic consumption. It is good to rely less and less on the international market.China should depend more on domestic consumption. Your people will enjoy the fruits of more balanced growth. For the people, not for the foreign consumers.So far most of the Chinese growth has been caught by the consumers in the international market through the cheap prices of exported goods from China. Now it is the turn of Chinese workers and consumers to benefit.
我认为中国的发展将越来越少依赖向外的维度。因此，出口和进口很可能就不那么重要了。中国正在失去它的成本比较优势，劳动成本在增加。尽管这不可逆，但也释放出了积极的信号。这意味着人们越来越富有，这也是大家所关心的议题。当中国日渐富裕时，它也自然会减少出口廉价商品。
问题的关键是，中国未来的发展将进入“新常态”，需要通过更多的国内消费变得更加平衡。对国际市场依赖的减少是好事。中国应该更多地依靠国内消费。人民将享受平衡增长的成果，而非外国消费者。在这之前，大部分的中国经济增长是在国际市场上通过外国人消费中国出口的廉价商品获得的。而现在，中国劳动者和消费者将从中受益。
提问8：我们知道两年前上海设立了自贸区，您认为自贸区的设立会惠及中国经济吗？
Q8:We all know that two years ago, Shanghai set thefree trade zone. What’s your commenton Shanghai free trade zone?
A8：I not actually an expert on the Shanghai free tradezone. My impressions is that this project is not really about trade. It is related to financial services and service reform. My impression is that it doesn’t deliver as much fruits and benefits as it could or was hoped. There is no massive engagement from foreign investors. Only one university and some hospitals settled there but it is not massive. I have no direct data to evaluate properly but I think that the zone didn’t manage to completely deliverthe expected benefits. But I understand the decision of government to again beworking slowly and securely. They are massive challenges with financial liberalization. It is related to financial stability.
我实际上并不是研究上海自由贸易区的专家。我认为这个项目并不是真正在于贸易，它还关系到金融服务和服务改革。我想相比原本的期待，自贸区目前可能并没有获得足够的成果。国外投资者没有积极参与其中。只有一所大学和医院在里面，但这还不够。我没有直接的数据来评估，但我认为自贸区没能完全实现预期收益。但我理解政府的决定，要缓慢稳定地推进工作。金融自由化面临巨大挑战，这也关系到金融稳定。
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